RE: Axle Alignment Question
bar425
Maybe we can help each other. I was linked over here to your post.
See this post of mine that describes what I "think" you have experienced. Tire Wear Pattern-Tandem Axle TT (Pic's) Where to look next
Please review this, it is loaded pic's pictures of the wearing tires. Tell me if this is what you have.
If any of you Fiver campers can help me on my TT, that would be much appreciated. From Bar425's post I'm learning about the axle bending to align.
Peg Leg, thanks for the tip on 2004 Al-Ko. I have the 2004 Al-Ko leaf spring setup. I'm assuming you where referring to the rubber torsion axles not the leaf spring correct?
If your 2005 Forest River Cardinal has the same axles as my previous 2005 All American Sport had, you could have two problems.
The first problem we had was that the axles were part of the Al-KO torsion axle issue where the spindles were bending. I'm sure if you a search on the 04's you'll find lots of info.
After they replaced our axles, the second problem we had was that they didn't tighten the hubs enough and it caused a lot of play in the wheels, causing the tires to wear unevenly again.
General RV in Wixom, MI is the one who did the work on ours...
Good luck!
Thanks everyone
John
RE: Tire Wear Pattern-Tandem Axle TT (Pic's) Where to look next
So how many miles do you have on the tires?
You might check all the welds. I saw a few in the pics that looked marginal. Your trailer is not very heavy so you're not terribly likely to break them off like I did but good idea to check. Only reason I can fathom for your tire wear is the axle is slightly out of wack. Its no big deal, just rotate the tires annually. You have 4-5 years on these, they are due for replacement anyway -- no big loss.
I bought the camper used last fall. The original owner never towed it much as I can tell by the lack of use. I'm estimating they put about 4K or less and I have about 6K. So approx 10K miles. The tread on the good ones is really high. I'll have to compare it to the spare that has never been used.
I am going to get new ones very soon (this fall) due to the age/cracks starting in the treads. But when I saw how bad the left rear one was and front right, they just did not look right and did not want to wear out my new ones until I at least understood the problem.
Thanks for the reply
John
Tire Wear Pattern-Tandem Axle TT (Pic's) Where to look next
Fellow Campers.
I have a tire wear problem. I’m due for new tires due to age/start of tread cracks however upon inspection today I have a wear problem on 2 of my tires. And the odd thing is they are different axles.
The Left rear has heavy wear, the left front is nice and even wear and lot’s of tread left.
The Right rear is nice and even wear and lot’s of tread left, the Right front has medium wear.
Both wearing tires are wearing inwards toward the trailer, and straight across the tread. The outside has a lot of tread depth the inside already to the wear bars. These are the original tires on a 2004 camper.
If you know of what can cause this please expand on it and give pointers where to look. This kind of wear points to something being off, the tires are scrubbing, but I have not yet found it. The rest of this post is in pic’s to help get the point across.
Here is a sketch of the wear and the camper setup
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/TirewearLO.jpg
This is a fairly std tandem axle setup
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Rightside.jpg
Here is the inside. Note there is a sq tube that spans the front and rear hanger area across the frame. Note: Only the rear sq tube is shown here.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Axlesetup.jpg
And there is a gusset welded on the center hanger to the main I bean frame rail for support.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/tirerightrear.jpg
OK now to the wear patterns
The Left rear. The worst. See wear pattern even across the tire, tapering to the inside.
A straight on shot
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftrearstraighton.jpg
A shot of left rear at ground
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftrearground.jpg
A shot of left rear at top
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftreartop.jpg
Now the left side but the front tire. Here there is even wear and lot’s of thread. A straight on shot
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftfrontstraighton.jpg
Left front top shot
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftfronttop.jpg
Now to the right side. The Right rear has even wear and lots of thread. Note this is the same axle as the left rear with lots of wear. A straight on shot
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Rightrearstraighton.jpg
Right rear top shot
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Rightreartop.jpg
Now the front right. This is wearing as well. Again tapered wear across the tire towards the inside. Just not as much as the left rear. A straight on shot.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Rightfrontstraighton.jpg
Right front top. You can see the sips are worn different on the inside as it is worn more.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Rightfronttop.jpg
So now I tried to see if the hangers where not equally spaced on both sides. There are some differences. I do not know the tolerances these where made to is the numbers or OK or not. While different, I can’t figure out why both tires on the same axle are not wearing if these differences mean something??
Here is the right side.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Measurerightside.jpg
Here is the left side. I have 1/8” total difference and about 1/16” on the hangers. I also noticed the hangers are not exactly 3” wide. I did not check the actual pin centers, yet anyway. While the hangers might be slightly different widths and different left to right, the pivot pins is what is locating this. I assume these are welded on a jig based off something.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Measureleftside.jpg
The center left hanger is also welded on twisted. See here. Again while this does not look right, I can’t figure out how it in and of itself will cause this wear.
The inside of the hanger
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftsidehangerinside.jpg
The outside of the same left center hanger
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftsidehangeroutside.jpg
And a pic of the left rear hanger that looks normal like the rest of them.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Sunline%20As%20Built/Tire%20Wear/Leftrearhanger.jpg
Any ideas?
I will measure from the ball center to the front hangers on left and right to see if that is correct and even. Ran out of time. But again if the axles are mounted wrong in relation to the ball coupler, I would “think” both tires on the same axle would wear. The camper tracks straight and inline behind the truck. There is no dog tracking.
I’m hoping someone has bumped into this and can help point to root cause.
Thanks
John
RE: Weight Distrubuting hitch with heavy payload in truck
A friend of mine is looking for a new weight distrubuting hitch. He tows a 33' trailer with a 850lb tongue weight behind a 3/4 ton Chev.
I know to match the hitch to the tongue weight, but the problem is, he regularly (about half the time) carries an 8-900lb SeaDoo in the back of the truck, with most of the weight at the rear. From what I can figure, this adds to the tongue weight which would mean that he'd need a hitch for ~1700lbs. (or maybe I'm wrong in thinking this?)
Now if he were to buy this hitch and all works well, how well would it work if he didn't have the SeaDoo in the back?
His current hitch doesn't tow well at all with or without the SeaDoo. It's an older model of unknown capacity.
Thanks for your opinions / help.
Hi BCBill
A few things stuck out in your post about your friends’ setup.
Is this 33 foot trailer with 850# tongue weight that does not tow very well now, a Travel trailer camper or an open or closed utility trailer?
If this is a real scaled 850# on a 33 feet, this is the first heads up. If it is a TT, what brand model is it? His towing problems may stem from low tongue weight.
The next question on does weight in the truck bed aft of the TV rear axles add to tongue weight? To the words actual tongue weight, well no, but it does add to the load the WD bars have to give if you are using the hitch to set the WD on teh truck right.
As others have said, the Trailer frame is taking this extra WD bar load. If he has a heavy enough A frame it will be OK but still this 850# tongue weight until we know what the trailer is, is wild card here.
If he buys a 1,700# WD hitch, I happen to have one, a hitch that large is on a 2 1/2" hitch shank, which means a 2 1/2" TV receiver. The largest I have seen is 1,500# on a 2" shank.
If your buddy wants to get rid of the trailer sway, that needs to be addressed first. He may be suffering from low tongue weight. On 33 feet and if it is a TT, then he should be shooting ideally for 13% to 15% tongue per loaded GVW of the TT to help naturally tame the sway. He may also be fighting a TV and or TT tire pressure problem. What tire pressure and what load range tires does he have? Or the WD hitch is really out of adjustment and that is part of the problem.
And once he adjusts the trailer balance to be right, well the tongue weight might go up. Pending what Chevy 2500 he has, he might trip the GVWR on the truck with the new tongue weight and a seedo. A duramax, crew cab eats up GVW. If so, then he has another problem.
My recommendation is to get the trailer balanced right first to tow right, Figure out the new tongue weight and this will help sort out the right WD hitch with integral sway control. Before he buys the hitch, then figure out what to do with the seedo. If he runs into the truck GVWR with the seedo, well the air bags trick won't fix that and he has some decision to make. Do I over run the truck limts or not? For me, not.
What is being said about setting up the air bags with bed weight first then setting the WD hitch, I agree with providing the truck can actually take all that weight. Has he ever weighed the truck with all camping gear in it? This would be in order, including the seedo.
Hope this helps. Let us know how he makes out.
John
RE: What Hitch and sway control does everyone use?
Hey all, Was wondering what type of hitch and sway control everyone uses. I have a Reese with friction bar sway control and it can get kind of nerve racking on the interstate. Any Suggestions?
Hi Jlktbk
To your first question, I am currently using a 1,700# Reese HP WD hitch with the HP dual cam as the hitch. My TV has 156" WB, LT tires, 1 ton suspension. The TT is 32 feet long; TT weighs 9,175# with a 1,400# tongue fully loaded with water. TW is 15.2% of loaded TT GVW. The WD hitch has been optimized on setup and I'm real picky on tire pressure and inflate the TT to max cold side wall pressure, and have proper high inflation tire pressure while towing on the TV. This combination tows very well, is very stable with the way I tow.
This same style hitch, but 1,200# rated WD bars I have had on this same TT before it was fully loaded on a K2500 130" WB Suburban. As well as a 27, foot TT. The hitch is a good part of a stable towing rig but it in itself does not fix all towing problems.
To help you along, I'll type some that might help if you want to get rid of some of your problems.
Any of the hitches mentioned will not solve all towing problems. Even the high end Hensley and Pro Pride. And this is not a bashing on any hitch as the hitch is only a part of a towing solution. A number of things have to line up. Some folks are more fortunate and hit the ideal setup quick, others have to work at it. All can be optimized to the best the rig can be. And sometimes something has to be changed to get you what you feel comfortable with in the end.
I did look up your TT. If I have the model numbers right is this it?
2008 Rockwood 8296SS
It lists different weights then you have. You may have a special one or the on line literature is out of date. What I was looking for was the design weight of the TT when it left the factory. There is one good thing that factual dry weights do give you. It is how the TT is balanced from the get go before anything is ever added to it. Armed with that knowledge, the floor plan, where water tanks are located, some guides lines can be given on what to watch out for when loading the TT so you end up with a good tongue weight balance to Loaded TT GVW. Since the on line data is different then you posted, I can't draw any conclusions from this. Scaled weights are now needed.
There are many factors that affect a stable towing rig. And when using any brand friction type sway control, Yes the DC and Equal-I-zer are friction also just better ones, all other towing parameters must be optimized to give you the best your rig can be. The hitch will not fix all problems. The higher end hitches like the Hensley or Pro Pride can overcome a lot of TV and TT problems, but pending the TV may not solve every towing problem. Point, don't run out and buy any new hitch until you know what the problem is.
So this now comes to, well what is the problem?? We do not know, and you too may not know, enough about your towing setup to root cause a towing problem from what has been given so far.
A description of what nerve racking will help us. So what is it doing that does not seem right? Please describe.
If you want to drill down into helping optimize your setup it will take a little work but pay off for it in the end. If you do please help answer these extra questions so we can tell more what you have.
Tell us how you determined the WD was set correctly on the TV? You may not know or you may,. If you do please describe.
If the dealer set the hitch when you picked up the TT has any settings been done since then after loading the TT and TV ready to go camping?
Tell us what brand, load range tires and air pressure you run on the truck?
Tell us how the TT stance is when towing and WD is engaged with TV and TT fully loaded ready to camp. Is it nose high, low or level and by how much from level if it is up or down?
What air pressure do you run in the TT tires verses cold side wall pressure?
Axle’s weights have been mentioned, both on TT and TV and the loaded tongue weight of the TT. If you really want to figure this out, spending around $8.00 at a truck scale will give you real data to figure out what is going on. And from this we can help do a final hone in on towing setup. Trust me it is always an eye opening experience weighing camping “stuff”. It can trick you quick. Been there, weighed that and oh my gosh…
Basically you need to do a total towing health check to figure out what is OK and what needs to be optimized and maybe changed. Some get lucky, make 1 adjustment and are good. And like I said others have to drill down into all the details. What worked for them may not work for you unless everything is exactly the same in the TV and TT. What are the odds of that happening.
I will say this from the little we know, a 31 foot TT, on the suspension of the truck you have with a std friction sway bar means everything has to be perfect in setup and it may not cure all the normal towing evils that come at you. The friction sway bar has its place, however in my opinion a 31 feet TT is not the best use of it.
The Towing setup sticky on top of this forum is a great place to start and solves many folk’s setups. Try it.
Good luck and hope this helps.
John
RE: Jayco 29X A-Frame Bending!
I have a lady friend hers bent up real bad---frames were made by Lippert---google it---sunlines have 1,000 of problems so does fleetwood
I turned hers into safety people--she's spent a lot to fix hers--and it's stil in the shop
rich in Va.
Hi Lamont
Your point on Sunlines having 1,000's of problems, can you help point us to this?
I am a Sunline owner and know of the 7,000# GVWR frames on certain years that have issues and the corrections Sunline owners are putting on them to make them all good once again. It is not all Sunlines and only in one frame size from 2005 up until mid 2007.
If you know of more info on specifics please pass it along. Our TT manufacture is no longer and we are sort of a self help group now.
Thanks
RE: Dual Cam set-up question
In other words the alignment after the pull is worse than before the pull. The 100 foot pull is supposed to perfect the alignment before the nuts are tightened, but in my case it makes it worse (on one side). That is the problem I am trying to solve. Any Ideas?
Austin
Use what I described as "alternate method" 4B and foward. If for some reason the cam yoke is not sliding like it should to meet the V notch in the bar, then you can put it in the rigth place once the TV and TT has tracked straight.
And what "type" of DC do you have? The older std one with U bolts or the new HP one? We can help better if we know what you have.
The old Standard DC looks like this
http://www.reeseproducts.com/prodphoto/26000.jpg
The new HP DC looks like this.
http://www.reeseproducts.com/prodphoto/26002_a.jpg
Hope this helps
John
RE: Dual Cam set-up question
Hi Austin Camper
Which DC do you have? The older style with the large U bolts to the frame or the newer HP DC that bolts directly to the frame?
If we know which one the help will be more direct as hammer hitting generally fits the older DC where you slide the actual DC bracket along the frame.
If you have the new HP DC type that look like this:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseDCflashlightlook.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseDCadjust-nokeeper1.jpg
If yours looks like this there are 2 ways to set the HP DC. The older style uses the same concept of setting just a different way to adjust the DC.
These steps will enhance the Reese instructions:
1. Set the WD on the TV and level out the TT on level ground with the TV and TT straight as can be seen by eye ball. It will not be "perfect" in line but close enough to set the WD.
2. Set the cams in your yard in this straight method. This get's you "close" until you can do the drive test to dial it in perfect. To do this in your yard, jack up the TT tongue and just slide the cams so they lay in the V notch of the WD bar. Set it down and look and see it is OK. It is only as good as the rough eyeball setting will give you but it is good enough to allow you to drive to a place to do it perfect.
3. Now once WD is done, drive to a place where you can drive straight for about 100 feet. Pick an object in the distance so you can slowly drive right towards it. By sighting an object the TV and TT will track straight together. This is the only way to get a true tracking alignment.
4. For the Reese method, when you get to the parking lot area, stop get out, loosen both nuts top and bottom on the HP DC and back off to allow about 1/8" daylight on both sides of the DC yoke. Jack up the TT tongue to do this. Then let the jack down, drive around making at least 1 right and left turn, can be 20 degrees or 90 degrees but 2 turns at least 20. Then line up to spot the object in the distance and drive straight to it. The cams will slide to the V notch on the HP DC.
5. Now get out and adjust both nuts up to the DC yoke to take all the play out. Move each nut to the center to not move the cam. They do not have to be dead tight yet, just all the play out. If you could not lock them dead tight due to the spring bars in the way, jack up TT, move WD bar, tighten that last little bit.
6. Now drive around one more time, turn left and right and then retrace 100 feet straight to sighted object. Get out and check. Take flash light and shine up both sides of the cam and look thru chain keeper hole and see that the V notch is dead center on the cam. It should be. If not repeat one more time.
If you do not like the thought of sliding the cam rods on the threads with a loaded TT tongue, use this "alternate method".
Insert at step 4 above:
4B Site your object in the distance and drive 100 feet to it.
5B. Get out and look with flashlight thru chain plate keeper hole and determine which way each cam has to be adjusted and by how much.
6B. Jack up TT, take WD bar off, adjust each cam the required amount. Rehook WD bars and let jack down.
7B drive around again,and repeat step 4B, 5B and 6B until the cam is dead centered.
Once set using either method, mark WD bar left and right and always use on the same side. They wear to a matched profile and if you flip-flop WD bars all the time the wear starts all over again and again and again.
If you have the older style, you may have to use the "alternate” method as very heavy tongue weights may not slide up and down the frame very well by the U bolts. I have never set one of them but can see that happening. There you will jack up, tap with hammer the bracket, tighten and then let it down and go around again for a test drive and check.
On the new HP DC I have done both methods above on lighter tongues, 750# all the way to 1400#. Both work.
Good luck
Hope this helps
John
RE: Suburban 2500...TT to big?? opinions
Let me add my 2004 1500 suburban has a 1500 lb rated receiver.....
Hi Clarkely
Yes welcome to the TV receiver quagmire. Your 2004, 1500 Burb had a label on that looks like this.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/2003Suburban2500GMhitchnametag-1.jpg
That label was off my 2003 K2500 Burb. The 1500 Tahoe, 1500 suburban, 1500 Silverado of that era had the same receiver. (2000 to 2006)
The tag is a little misleading but accurate in the way the truck is rated. The physical "receiver" was rated to handle 1500# in WD mode. However the rear axle of the 1500 Burb, Tahoe cannot handle a 1500# tongue weight. Nor the GVWR with people inside. They basically gave you a receiver that was higher rated. GM trailering guide in 2004 stated max tongue weight on 1500 was 1,000# regardless if it has a 1500# receiver.
And trust me I would not attempt to tow a 1500# tongue with that receiver regardless. For many reasons. And 1 of which is where you are going to find a WD shank with an actual sticker on it rated at 1,500#? Drawtite offers a 1,400 in 2" but I have yet to find any 2" shank from the big hitch makers have a 1500# rated 2" shank. Has anyone? If so please post brand.
All the manufactures preach 10 to 15% tongue weight for stable towing. They supply drive trains that can pull a lot of pounds. However the receiver can be an issue. And there is that "fine" print that says tongue weight may limit the size of trailer you tow.
Dodge/Ford and GM have flip flopped many times over the years on what rated receiver to put on what truck. You can buy a truck with a 12,000# tow rating they put a 1,250# WD rated receiver on it. If ones 9,000# TT has 15% tongue weight, that is a 1,350# tongue. The combo does not fit. Which in my casse I had to upgrade. Fortunately I knew this going in on my F350 and researched how to upgrade.
If you have a 15% tongue weight of 1,250# the most your TT can weigh is 8,350# and not trip the ratings.
Even a 2500 Suburban that has a 1500# tongue rating listing, most cannot use it, as they have people and other must have things inside the truck. While their rear axle will not trip in the 2500 Burb, you can trip the 8,600# GVWR limit with a heavy tongue TT. All I could carry was 1,200# on mine. Many other 2500 Burb towers are in teh same boat. In my case I was fighting GVWR as I had people inside and some camping gear. I hit the 8,600# GVWR limit first.
Good luck with your quest and we hope you actually can find something to work properly on the new Burbs. Many are in a similar situation. The 2500 truck is very capable of handling a 1200# tongue TT with the inside moderately loaded. And the receiver as it now comes from GM, it is no longer a working option.
Again good luck
John
RE: Suburban 2500...TT to big?? opinions
Hi Again Clarkely
Did you make a slight typo here and leave the R off? Or is this actually correct?
Yes you are correct..tied into my Burb......at least for three years......I towed my 9700GVW, 32'8" OL Trailer just fine with my 2004 5.3 1500 Burb......through Pennsylvania and NY mountains. I know it was maxxed....but i was not stressed driving it. That is why, after upgrading to a 2500 i was looking at TT that were around the same size or no more than 1000lbs heavier.
I have 4 children....so the largest New TV i could buy and be comfortable inside of it was a 2500 burb.......so I did.....
Which gets me to this point.........looking to upgrade the TT.
If your existing TT actually weighs 9,700# (GVW) being tugged by a 04, 1500 Burb then that is quite a feat. I think you meant a 9,700# GVWR rated TT loaded to 6,800# As in the other post you listed it weighed 6,800#
Snip..
I have a propride (Hensley Improvement) that helps greatly with my current TT.
My current TT is 32' 8" ....these floor plans are around 35' 8" .....little less then 3 feet......length has been a concern......but i do not know if i should be overly worried about this increase.....
Current TT weight is 6800 lbs..........and the same height. I am more worried about weight...........really want this trailerthis trailer and so does the Wife........but we do do a lot of Towing..........not sure if i am over doing it or not.....
I am looking at up grading my TT.....
The floor plans I like weigh in from 7800 lbs to 8050 lbs. Dry.
The truck has a 2200 lb payload capacity, of which we use about 600-650 lbs of.
We probably add 800-1100 lbs of cargo to the dry weight of the trailer (we never travel with anything in the Fresh/Black/Grey Tanks)
If I’m adding up your estimates correctly, you would be expecting a 8,050# dry TT add, 1,100# of gear for the 4 of you and possible a 1,400# tongue with the Pro pride hanging on it. A 1,400# tongue / 9,160# TT = 15.3% tongue. The TT is loaded about right for a family of 4 and the tongue weight is in the right area.
If this is your actual combination, that TT is just about the same size as my new one. Which is 9,200# with 1,375# tongue loaded, 32 feet long. My 2003 K2500, 6.0/4.10 could not handle a TT of that size and stay within the GM declared rating of the truck on GVWR, and axle ratings. GCWR would also be tripped. So if you are asking if you think the weight is too much, then yes I agree with you, it is too much.
Since you have the TV, a lighter TT will help.
I have scaled weights at home on a 2007 1500 Suburban with a buddy I have helped, just not the 2007 redeign 2500. So I can’t get any closer for you. No matter how I add up your TT weights and the 4 passengers inside I can’t make them fit within the limits of your 2500 Burb. Run the numbers yourself so you know going in where you stand.
In my case I was going to add a cap to my truck some day plus the amount of gear in the truck bed I carry would put me over the limits of a ¾ ton Chevy 2500HD or Ford F250 with enough engine to get up to 21,000 GCWR. So I went to the 1 ton truck.
Good luck in your decision and one last helpful thing that I can pass along to consider with your GM drive train. You will be towing heavy and pushing the tranny harder with the smaller one in the 08 Burb then my 03 4l80E tranny. Change the transmission fluid, (pan and TC) every year and change the rear axle oil. The GM shop manual states if you tow heavy, change often. They really do not give you a hard mileage number. Or at leas that I could find in the 4 volumes of shop manual I have. Once a year fits and I set mine up so I can change all the oil quickly.
GM put a drain plug in the pan thank goodness and I added a valve arrangement in the front, full ported, to allow the TC to pump out while I kept up refilling. Basically after the pan is empty, add ½ the total oil capacity, then have a helper idle the engine while you pump out and pour in the balance 6 quarts quickly. Have your buddy turn it off if you stumble pouring. See here. This is done by many others. I did not invent this.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Suburban%20Upgrades/Transvalve.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Suburban%20Upgrades/Transvalveside.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Suburban%20Upgrades/Transvalvebucket.jpg
I also added a TC output gage to watch what heat was coming out of the TC. The GM dash gage is the pan temp. Between these 2 you can tell what is going on.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Suburban%20Upgrades/Jordan.jpg
Good luck
John
RE: F350 Receiver Upgrade - (Pic's)
............
Tongue weight ratings in various Super Duty configurations in WD mode as standard Stock offers.
F250 SD = 1,250# Max (2" Pin box)
F350 SD SRW = 1,250# Max (2" Pin box)
F350 SD DRW = 1,500# Max (2 1/2" Pin box)
F450 SD DRW = 1,600# Max. ( 2 1/2" pin box)
The 2005 and forward F250/350 and 450 all share the same 7 mm thick frame that has the same section modulus and 36KSI frame strength.
If I was to order a new truck, the dealer could have a F450 receiver installed on a F350 SRW truck. Or at least the one who was pushing me to a F350 Dully to handle a 1,400# tongue weight TT.
I tried to find a technical reason on why the F350 SRW receiver was so low, but could not find one that seemed technically sound. However I was still doing better then my buddy with his 2002 Dodge Ram 3500 dually with a 1,000# WD receiver as stock.
John
My 08 F350 dually 2-1/2" receiver is labeled as:
w/o the adapter:
WD 16,000 Max Gross trailer weight; 1,600 Max tongue weight
WC 8,000 Max Gross trailer weight; 800 Max tongue weight
with the adapter:
WD 12,500 Max Gross trailer weight; 1,250 Max tongue weight
WC 6,000 Max Gross trailer weight; 600 Max tongue weight
Bob
Bob, Thanks for the clarification. I was using the 2007 Ford Source book for my info. Seems yours is just like the F450. Wonder if Ford changed this in 2008 to only have 1 larger reciever.
Thanks again. This is good to know.
John
RE: F350 Receiver Upgrade - (Pic's)
Snip
If the fillet welds joining the cross tube to the side plates are done properly, those welds will be stronger than the base metals they are joining together. There is no need for the tube to penetrate the plate from a strength perspective, if welded properly.
Welded properly means-
-proper selection of the filler metal for base metals being welded (stick electrode type, mig wire and gas type, or flux wire type)
-proper current (or voltage and wire speed for wire processes) settings for the electrode size/type and base metal type/thickness, joint type and position
-proper pre-weld preparation of the base metals (clean the metal before welding)
-proper execution of the weld (arc length, travel angle, work angle, travel speed, oscillation or weave technique if used, etc) to accomplish the proper weld attributes (root penetration, toe wet-in, joint fill size, bead profile, etc)
Basicaly, if you know what you're doing, the welded joint will be strong enough for the task at hand, provided the part has been properly designed to handle the intended load.
Yes you are so very right. I do not fear welding, it has to be done right. We buy custom made ASME Section VIII pressure vessels for work and then put machinery inside them. The main vessels are submerged arc welded. If you do not trust welds, better not work around pressure vessels...
Again key is, it has to be done right.
Thanks for the post SoCal.
John
RE: Suburban 2500...TT to big?? opinions
I am upgrading my Hitch Receiver..........I can't believe GM has a 1000lb receiver....I can't believe I looked past that in assuming it was like the old style 2500's rated at 1500lbs.
The reason I asked these questions/topics.....is I believe the truck has a greater towing capacity than its ratings. I say this based on the fact that the suspension/platform/braking are the same as their pick up's with higher "Tow Ratings".
Snip...
I have no current Issues with my set up in regards to power....i can maintain speed and accelerate on most climbs. The 1500 i had would lose power ....but the 2500 has plenty of horses left in pulling this set up...the ProPride has taken the waggle out of the length equation.
I hope the above explains why i asked the question's....I am asking for your opinions and i am very thankful for what you have shared. I am looking to upgrade and i will be going to Hershey to look at All of my options.
Thanks
Hi again clarkely
You said something that is not exactly correct from my findings. You said the Burb has the same suspension at the PU and the PU's have higher "tow ratings" and due to this that the Burb can tow more then it's ratings.
Not exactly by the numbers. You used the word "Tow Rating". Those 2 words have gotten many good folks in trouble. Think GCWR. That is the real number. I have not yet figured out what Chevy did in 2007 but the 2500HD ratings jumped. See here. 2008 2500HD pull ratings
A 6.0 with 4.10 has a 18,500# GCWR. In 2006 it was 16,000#. Regardless in 2006 or 2008, a 2500HD can pull more TT and hold up more tongue weight then a 2500 Suburban. I have run the numbers many times and the PU always wins. I am comparing a 2500HD, 6.0/4.10 crew cab short bed to the 2500 Suburban with the same engine and rear axle in it.
Now why. Well the PU just plan weighs less to start with. Next is the axle ratings. The Suburban is rated at 5,500# GAWR-RR, the is PU is 6,084# GAWR-RR. Both have the same tires but the suspension is different. The frame is different. The Burb has a 10 gage frame the 2500HD is 3/16". The back of the PU truck weighs less, it's a big open bed then the Burb with the enclosed body and glass. So the payload of the PU is more. It is sprung to haul weight. Like a truck. And it rides like a truck not like a Cream puff SUV.
Since the PU weighs less, it leaves more room for more TT to pull and not hit the GCWR limit.
Years ago, yes the Suburban use to be built on a PU truck frame. But those days are long gone. The newer Burbs are luxury vehicles.
You said on the 1st page, the TT of the Salem was 8,050# and you where going to add up to 1,100# of gear to it. Well that is about right for the average camper. So that is 9,150# of TT you are pulling. If you out fit the Burb with the right axle ratio is can be 16,000# GCWR. Subtract the loaded TT from 16,000# and that is 6,850# left the truck can weight. Well, here is problem 1.
Unless Chevy took hundreds of pounds out of the 2007 redesign see here from one of my many trips to the scales on my 2003, K2500. The truck unhitched with my towing cargo/people inside was 7,560#
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/2003SuburbanWeights-Page1.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/2003SuburbanWeights-Page2.jpg
How do you figure you can pull a 9,150# TT with the TV with options and 650# of cargo inside and not trip the 16,000 GCWR limit?
2008 Burb Curb weight specs The 4 x 2 curb is 6,039# and the 4 x 4 is 6327#. Curb weight does not have all the goodies we normally get with options. Options on a Burb can be 300 plus pounds.
Like Burbman said. Load up the kids and DW, fill up the gas and take the Burb to the scale. Weight front and rear axle. Cost about $8.00. Then you know exactly where you stand.
My opinion, and that is all it is, running full 16,000# GCW with a TT on a 6.0/4.10 Suburban is not a long haul/long term setup. Sooner or later something will break. 16,000# GCW of a boat, maybe, but not a TT with a slide.
Good Luck
John
RE: Suburban 2500...TT to big?? opinions
d schmincke
Hi, I am assuming you where having a little fun with your pic. Nice TT by the way. With the shine on that TT is must be the day you brought it home. Also noticed no WD bars on the Reese DC hitch you have. How far did you pull it?
RE: Suburban 2500...TT to big?? opinions
Hi Clarkely
I might be able to help you with your indecision. I had a rig very similar to your situation. And then I upgraded my TT and then I upgraded my TV.
Here is what I had and I have measured the weights of the Suburban about 6 ways from next Tuesday.
2003 6.0 with the 4.10 rear end, 3rd row seat removed, 2 passengers, 250# of camping gear, 105# of bikes, 1,200# of tongue weight. Truck sitting at 8,500#, I had 100# before hitting the 8,600 GVWR.
TT was 6,800# lower profile with water and again the 1,200# tongue. Total GCW = 14,100#.
I dropped it in 3rd gear, tow haul on and went anywhere I want to go on the east coast. Never took it out west. That was one great combination and I really miss that truck. Here is a pic.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Sunline%20Camper/2003SuburbanandT2499.jpg
Then I bought a new TT. The one in my sig. I knew I had to long term upgrade my TV but I also found the edge of the Burb. Here it is on the day home from the dealer.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camping%20Trips/T310SR/CowansGap.jpg
TT was 32 feet and empty was 7,300#, with what I had in the truck, not a lot, my GCW was about 14,500#. Not a lot more weight then I had been towing BUT 8 to 10" taller. Ding, Ding the bells should be going off now. Wind drag.
On the 500-mile trip one way from the dealer home I could tell it was back there significantly more then my older TT. Yet only some 300 ish pounds more weight. On the highway is did OK, not great, but OK. 7% grade interstate she went down to 50 MPH. I only tow at 60mph. Then I went to camp for the night. Oh boy. I found a great campground up in the mountains of PA. The tyranny hit 235 and I had to pull off and let it cool down. Ok made it to camp. Phewwwwww
Then on the way home I ran into this. A series of hills that would not let up. Then the last 3 mile looong one.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camping%20Trips/BlueRidgehill.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camping%20Trips/T310SR/BlueRidge.jpg
By the time I got to the top I was doing 20 mph, I had a Torque convertor output temp gage and it left 260F long ago. The pan was up to 245 and the engine just hit flashing hot it was climbing above 220. No where to pull over I had to keep going. I took my foot out of it, the engine dropped temp thank God, and I prayed to the top doing 15 mph and pulled over and took that pic. The line of 50 cars then zoomed by and I let it cool down. The rest of the way how, I was OK as the hills let up.
Once home in the flat lands of central Ohio I loaded the camper part way until it the GCW of the Burb and the TT = 15,750. Towed about 2500 miles before I found my new to me TV. The Burb at that weight pulled Ok in the flat lands and I knew better then ever take it in the hills of southern Ohio. I was then on the search for a new TV sooner then I realized.
When they say 16,000 GCWR that is a real number on the Burb and a TT. And even then you want about 1500 to 2000# extra pulling capacity left over. I never ran out of engine, ran out of transmission cooling capacity,
My 2003 K2500 had the 4l80E heavier transmission. In 2007 GM redesigned the Burb and the Yukon. The K2500 now has a lighter tyranny I do believe. It is a 4l70E. The 1500's have a 4l60E.
And here is another issue. See this off a 2007 Yukon XL, 2500.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/2007rearhitch.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/2007rearunderside.jpg
Yes you read that sticker right. 1,000# max tongue weight in WD mode. And unless you found an after market receiver to fit that new style Burb, 1,000# TW is it.
Air bags will not help you carry more weight then the 8,600# the Burb is rated for. The frame attaching to the receiver will have issues.
The older, 2000 to 2006 Burbs can handle a 1,200# tongue weight with the right receiver but that is it. If you expect a 1,400# tongue weight, you are minimum into a 2500HD or F250. And even then you have to watch what else you have in the truck and what engine as PU's have a lot of room to add stuff. And they too can hit GVWR even though they have plenty of pulling power. Put a diesel in the front and a crew cab and that eats up payload. I have a 1,400# TW on my new camper and the F350 handles it just fine.
From a fellow Burb tower of your engine, you will not be happy long term. Sooner or later you will put the truck in a bad situation.
I know, decisions, decisions. Been there towed that and then upgraded.
Good luck Hope this helps
John
PS I would not change the tires to 17" and I would not recommend Michelin LTX for towing on a K2500 Suburban. Been there, done that and dealt with the sway that comes from those great new premium tires. Your pro pride will help the sway but you will still feel the squirm of the LTX and have to deal with rotating the tires every 3000 miles to keep the goofy thread wear down. I have a post on this too if you want it.
RE: F350 Receiver Upgrade - (Pic's)
Big Toe
Your info updates are always interesting...
The newer Ex's, like the 2005 at least, are riveted on in one place on each side. If someone wants to get it off, it is going to be work.
The topic of after market Ex receiver has come up often. The normal producers, Reese, Curt, Valley etc do not offer them. The last I heard some place out west will custom make you one but they have to install it. They will not sell it uninstalled. The exact name of the place deos not come to mind but it is here on the forum somewhere.
Thanks for the info.
John
RE: F350 Receiver Upgrade - (Pic's)
I`de personally rahter see the cross tube through the side plates and then plug weld the cross tube! if you have a weld break on the butt welded cross tube that would not be good.
Dodge Guy
I agree a weld fail is a bad thing any day. And personally I do like the square tube inserted in the side plate. However we can’t seem to get away from the weld somewhere along the way in conventional towing hitches. The Ford SD receiver while it has a square tube thru a square hole in the side plate, still has a all welded together pin box.
See here
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/F350%20Super%20Duty/F350Pinbox-front.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/F350%20Super%20Duty/F350Pinbox-rear.jpg
The weld has to be right regardless which end it is on.
Over the years both Ford and GM have made sq tube torque tubes that go thru the end plates and inserted the 2" pin box inside the torque tube. Just this weekend I was camping with a bud and he had a 2005 EX, His Ex had that square thru the end plates and pin box inserted in the torque tube. As far as looks, it looked better then my stock SD receiver. Your 2002 EX I do not know if it had the upgraded reciever. The older Ex's where not rated as high and I do not know what year the rating where up'ed. His 2005 had a 1,250# WD rating on it just like the F250 and F350 SRW Super Duty.
Yet the weld still remains on all of them to hold the pin box in place so it will not pull out while towing. While the sq tube in a sq hole will give some relief for the stain of WD on the receiver, the Reese HP hitch head I have has the C shaped clevis that goes around the shank welded to the forged head. So that weld is still both pulling and WD.
I agree the less welds the better, but we can't seem to get away from it with conventional hitch equipment. The weld has to be right or else is is going to be a real bad day.
John
RE: F350 Receiver Upgrade - (Pic's)
On the subject of the cross tube of the Tow Beast being butt welded to the slide plates, a Reese representative had this to say when asked why not pass the tube through the plate?
"Because of corrosion" he responded.
Most tube through plate designs have open tube ends, which are open to the corrosive atmosphere. The Reese Titan (now Tow Beast) design seals the inside of the tube from the environment.
This was the Reese representative's statement to me about 9 years ago, pre-Cequent, pre-Hidden Hitch, pre-Draw-Tite acquisitions.
For what it's worth...
Great to see you still at it John!
Big Toe
Thanks for passing this along. Corrosion can be an enemy on any receiver especially in the welds.
Yes I'm still at it. Bigger camper, bigger TV and bigger receiver.... Have to do the towing health check to make sure everything all lines up.
The Super Duty receiver was very good at a 1,200# tongue weight. WD setting was not problem and the pin box fit the shank well. However that little "sticker" rating was the issue for the upgrade. As I continued to load my new TT and the TV, I went past that rating sticker.
Ford, GM and Dodge all declare good tongue weight in the 10 to 15% range for towing. However they do not give you a receiver in a stock configuration to use much over the 10% if your TT happens top be built to load towards the 14 or 15% tongue range. Like for exp, a 10,000# GVWR TT with 14% TW is 1,400#. A 10,000# GVWR TT is well within the capabilities of a F350SD.
Tongue weight ratings in various Super Duty configurations in WD mode as standard Stock offers.
F250 SD = 1,250# Max (2" Pin box)
F350 SD SRW = 1,250# Max (2" Pin box)
F350 SD DRW = 1,500# Max (2 1/2" Pin box)
F450 SD DRW = 1,600# Max. ( 2 1/2" pin box)
The 2005 and forward F250/350 and 450 all share the same 7 mm thick frame that has the same section modulus and 36KSI frame strength.
If I was to order a new truck, the dealer could have a F450 receiver installed on a F350 SRW truck. Or at least the one who was pushing me to a F350 Dully to handle a 1,400# tongue weight TT.
I tried to find a technical reason on why the F350 SRW receiver was so low, but could not find one that seemed technically sound. However I was still doing better then my buddy with his 2002 Dodge Ram 3500 dually with a 1,000# WD receiver as stock.
John
RE: Safety chains too long?
Fellow Campers
This topic comes up often on chains, breakaway switches, crossing the chains, catching the tongue etc. All those topics seemed to be “linked” together….:R
I have read all the posts and we have a variety of opinions. After much debate on this topic a few years ago I sent out for myself to figure this out. Both the “catching” of the tongue and the how to set the breakaway. And as I went thru the research, having an open mind on the topic, I changed my views and setup because of it.
I’ll share some of my findings that fit “my” situation. See this post complete with pictures and backup of my setup and how it was adjusted. WD Hitch Safety Chains Hook Up (Pic's)
I have not yet found a TT WD hitch setup that bought commercially without modification to “catch” the tongue if the TT separates from the TV. I’m not saying there are not any, I just have not found one. If you have actually found one, please post pictures with dimensions if possible on how you where able to do this so we can learn from it. As on my setup, I have found it is not possible. See this one pic from that post. There is no chain adjustment that can be made to stop that setup from hitting the ground.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Saftey%20Chains/F350chainsetup3excesslinks.jpg
When unhooked it hits
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Saftey%20Chains/3TTtonueonground.jpg
I also have heard folks talk about using the quick links. Have you found quick links with a DOT grade 43 or higher stamp on them? For towing application all I have found is that all components must be graded 43 or higher. If you found some, please link us to that site as folks with the Hensley have this problem often and I have a few buds trying to find them.
I am not a fan of the chain twisting. Force loading can be affected and the TT tongue steering when on the ground can be affected. When the 2 strands are open and crossed they drag drag the TT better.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Saftey%20Chains/6Tonguedropepddraging.jpg
The next is the breakaway switch. I also researched this and simulate the chain connections/breakaway pulling in that same post linked above complete with pictures. I have found many places where it is documented by trailer manufactures and breakaway switch manufactures that the breakaway should activate prior to the chains reach full length when a TT separation occurs. I have not found anywhere in writing that the breakaway should only come on when total TT separation occurs. Have you? I even wrote to my own TT manufacture on this to get there opinion.
The one big thing that my TT maker pointed out is that the biggest issue they see is the back of the TV getting bumped by the rolling TT at speed and forcing a lose of control of the TV. They felt that evil was worse then the TT brakes being applied by the breakaway switch which while not great, has more control then the bumping TV problem.
Here is the example that changed my mind. While doing 50 MPH down the highway, in a slight turn something on the hitch system broke and or let loose. When the TT become detached from the TV that event yanked out the 7 wire cable. The TV on board brake control is now useless. That plus the fact that I may have obstacles in front of me that must keep my focus on the road and in control of the wheel. When the safety chains setup and breakaway switch are correctly sized and hooked up, the breakaway activates first then the chains pull tight. The TT will them try the hardest is can to stop the TT and part of the TV stopping. You can now apply TV brakes without having the TT bump the back of the TV.
If you are of the camp that feels you can control the TT from the manual brake lever and only ever want the breakaway to active when the total separation occurs how do you stop the TT if the 7 wire gets yanked? You have a tiger by the tail that will not let go and you cannot stop it. What would you do?
The next question always come up that the TT brakes are going to lock solid and create great pain. This depends on a number of factors and may or may not apply in your situation. Many Electric drum brakes are non adjusting, and unless folks keep they adjusted they loose efficiency when not adjusted properly. And then there is the capacity issue. In my case I have a 10,000# GVWR TT and when loaded it is 9,214# confirmed by scales when loaded with fresh water. It is 374# less when no water. The odds of my TT brakes, even while fully adjusted close to the drum are not in my favor to lock hard going 50 mph down the road when the breakaway trips.
Now why? Dexter axle even declares that the brake on there chassis are sized to the full GVWR of the trailer. Not all will lock when at full load but are still in acceptably sized to stop the load. What they mean is it just takes a few more seconds when full on as the electric drum brakes is not that efficient when near max load and higher speeds are encountered. Those same brakes may lock fully loaded going 15 mph though like we do on a drag test. A TT that is lighter and more cargo carrying capacity could have a better chance of the brakes locking then a fully loaded one.
The next area is that once wheel lockup occurs the actual drag force could be less then when high breaking is actually occurring. A rolling wheel being braked can at times have a higher braking force then a skidding tire. Yes the first jolt is hard, but after that a skidding tire is a lot less on the pulling force then when the brakes are actually working.
If you are one of the fortunate ones and have more efficient disk brakes on your TT, then your odds are higher you will lock.
If you are on wet pavement and a slight angle in the road, locked brakes is not a good thing as skidding can slide the TT. However the TT sliding into the TV can many times be a worse thing. Again this comes down to which evil do you want to deal with? There is no great one.
My research has come up with:
***Chains crossed
***Chains adjusted so a full turn can occur and no binding. Keep them as short as possible to allow this and still hook up.
***Chain adjusted in length so they do not drag on the ground.
***Breakaway switch to activate when a TT disconnects from the TV before the chains reach full length.
***Breakaway cable connected to the TV direct and not on the reciever or hitch.
A TT disconnecting is not a good thing in any case. Which evil do you want to deal with? Check you equipment often, set it up properly to your research and travel safe.
Hope this helps
John
RE: 1999 chevy suburban
I have towed 27 feet non slide TT, 6800# with my K2500 Suburban. 2003, 6.0 with the 4.10 rear end. That combination worked very well. (16,000# GCWR)
That same trailer, however not yet loaded at 6,800# yet, was towed by my 2002 Chevy Tahoe. 5.3 with the 3.73. In my case pulling was not so much the issue as tongue weight. My rear living camper had a very high tongue weight for such a small camper. 1,200# to be exact fully loaded. And that was to much for a 1500 SUV. had to even watch it on the 2500.
Pulling is 1 thing, holding up the TT is another. If you have many people in your Suburban and some gear, you can max out the rear axle or the GVWR. This is true of most any 1/2 ton SUV of any brand.
I also had a 97 Tahoe which was most likely similar drive train to your 99, 1500 Burb. It was the 5.? with a 3.73. I use to haul a 6 x 12 cargo trailer with it, 6,000# and while I knew it was back there, it did OK here in central and southern Ohio. However when I bought my TT and had the 2002 Tahoe, the newer engine, when I dropped that 5,000# empty TT on the back it was night and day difference then pulling the 6,000# of cargo trailer. The 8 foot wide 9 1/2 foot tall wall we tow down the road with a TT eats up a trucks performance unless you have the power and drive train to take it and cool it.
And yes please post is 1500 or 2500 with engine size and rear axle, and how many pounds of people are inside. A TT name and model will help us figure out the tongue weights as well if you can hold it up.
Like was mentioned, read up on Towing Tips.com. David also had a 1500 Burb before he went 2500.
Hope this helps
John
